Jack Mullen was kind enough to send me some additional information about the C&NW's 41' 6" gondola fleet that I thought was quite helpful with respect to filling out some gaps in my previous post (http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/06/c-41-6-70-ton-gondolas.html):
"Chronologically, the lots were:
70501 71999 odd750 Beth 1945 DF-80
69701 70499 odd400 Beth 1946 DF-89
CMO 88101 88899 odd400 Beth 1946 DF-90
130701 131699 odd500 Beth 1948 DF-125
CMO 88901 89199 odd150 Beth 1948 DF-126
75001 75399 odd200 Beth 1953 DF-191
5192 5691 incl.500 GATC 1956 BO-8083
IIRC, The year built is what was listed on CNW diagram sheets. I'm pretty sure that actual blt dates on the 1948 order ran into 1949.
As you noted there were three different ends used. The second end you show is what I'd call a reversed dreadnaught. It's essentially the dreadnaught rib-and-dart stamping, with the ribs facing inward. Somebody on STMFC may have a better name for it.
It's hard to pin down which ends were used on which series, partly because the cars appear to have been mixed in later renumberings.
Most photos I've seen, including most in Kincaid, are of renumbered cars.
As your photo shows, the 1956 GATC cars had a plain (not Improved)dreadnaught. The ribs and darts don't go all the way to the corner. A distinctive feature is the two vertical reinforcing straps just visible in your photo. They're welded across the ribs and angle in to the top chord and end sill. These are as-built, not a later addition.
The same end is seen in builders photos of 75205 from the 1953 Bethlehem order, but your photo of the Improved dreadnaught is said to be from the same series. ??? This could be a replacement, or perhaps a change was made midway in production. Just speculation...
The reversed dreadnaught is seen in a bldr photo of CMO 88129 of the 1946 order. I *think* the Improved was used on the 1948-49 cars, but don't have solid evidence.
There's a distinctive difference from the Accurail cars on at least the 1953 and 1956 cars. A heavier H-section cast stake was used in place of some of the usual U shaped stamped or rolled stakes. The 4th and 7th stakes on the 1953 cars, and 3, 5, 6, and 8 on the 1956 lot are castings. Unfortunately, those are the lots with the same end as Accurail. I hope that doesn't throw a monkey wrench into your project. It looks like the cast ribs were replaced with normal ones when the cars were rebuilt with a heavier top chord in the 1970s.
C&NW also had 50-ton gons built in 1941 by Beth and GATC that were similar, except having 9 panel sides instead of 11. They did use the Dreadnaught end as on the Accurail cars.
I hope your project goes well, and that this is some help, not just raising problems.
Jack Mullen"
Jack, that was quite helpful in sorting out my thinking. Thanks! My original thought was to use the Accurail car as a basis for the 5192-5691 cars, mill off the molded on grabs and ladders, and replace the trucks.
It still seems like the 5192-5691 ends are compatible with the Accurail kit with the addition of the two reinforcing straps, which should be doable. I didn't bring my copy of the Kincaid book with me on this short trip, but it would seem that maybe 4 ribs on each side might have to be milled off and replaced with H-section castings. I had a vague notion when I prepared the first post that the ribs on those cars didn't seem to all be the same.
Although the Accurail car may not represent any single one of these 70-ton gons without modification, it might be fun to see how many of the rib/end variations could be tackled. The ends are separate castings, so their replacement is not quite as daunting as reworking several of the ribs. And the ribs are a really nice feature of the car. The main thing I had hoped to learn from this project was milling off molded on detail; when it works, and when it's just not worth the effort. I have struggled through several removal projects using hand tools and I'm really curious as to whether my little CNC mill can make short work of this task in jogging mode. We'll see when it gets here in September...
The 50-ton gons would require removal and replacement of all of the ribs, which suggests to me that it might just be easier to scratchbuild them; but if the milling works well they could be added to the project as well.
Charles Hostetler
Germantown, MD
"Chronologically, the lots were:
70501 71999 odd750 Beth 1945 DF-80
69701 70499 odd400 Beth 1946 DF-89
CMO 88101 88899 odd400 Beth 1946 DF-90
130701 131699 odd500 Beth 1948 DF-125
CMO 88901 89199 odd150 Beth 1948 DF-126
75001 75399 odd200 Beth 1953 DF-191
5192 5691 incl.500 GATC 1956 BO-8083
IIRC, The year built is what was listed on CNW diagram sheets. I'm pretty sure that actual blt dates on the 1948 order ran into 1949.
As you noted there were three different ends used. The second end you show is what I'd call a reversed dreadnaught. It's essentially the dreadnaught rib-and-dart stamping, with the ribs facing inward. Somebody on STMFC may have a better name for it.
It's hard to pin down which ends were used on which series, partly because the cars appear to have been mixed in later renumberings.
Most photos I've seen, including most in Kincaid, are of renumbered cars.
As your photo shows, the 1956 GATC cars had a plain (not Improved)dreadnaught. The ribs and darts don't go all the way to the corner. A distinctive feature is the two vertical reinforcing straps just visible in your photo. They're welded across the ribs and angle in to the top chord and end sill. These are as-built, not a later addition.
The same end is seen in builders photos of 75205 from the 1953 Bethlehem order, but your photo of the Improved dreadnaught is said to be from the same series. ??? This could be a replacement, or perhaps a change was made midway in production. Just speculation...
The reversed dreadnaught is seen in a bldr photo of CMO 88129 of the 1946 order. I *think* the Improved was used on the 1948-49 cars, but don't have solid evidence.
There's a distinctive difference from the Accurail cars on at least the 1953 and 1956 cars. A heavier H-section cast stake was used in place of some of the usual U shaped stamped or rolled stakes. The 4th and 7th stakes on the 1953 cars, and 3, 5, 6, and 8 on the 1956 lot are castings. Unfortunately, those are the lots with the same end as Accurail. I hope that doesn't throw a monkey wrench into your project. It looks like the cast ribs were replaced with normal ones when the cars were rebuilt with a heavier top chord in the 1970s.
C&NW also had 50-ton gons built in 1941 by Beth and GATC that were similar, except having 9 panel sides instead of 11. They did use the Dreadnaught end as on the Accurail cars.
I hope your project goes well, and that this is some help, not just raising problems.
Jack Mullen"
Jack, that was quite helpful in sorting out my thinking. Thanks! My original thought was to use the Accurail car as a basis for the 5192-5691 cars, mill off the molded on grabs and ladders, and replace the trucks.
It still seems like the 5192-5691 ends are compatible with the Accurail kit with the addition of the two reinforcing straps, which should be doable. I didn't bring my copy of the Kincaid book with me on this short trip, but it would seem that maybe 4 ribs on each side might have to be milled off and replaced with H-section castings. I had a vague notion when I prepared the first post that the ribs on those cars didn't seem to all be the same.
Although the Accurail car may not represent any single one of these 70-ton gons without modification, it might be fun to see how many of the rib/end variations could be tackled. The ends are separate castings, so their replacement is not quite as daunting as reworking several of the ribs. And the ribs are a really nice feature of the car. The main thing I had hoped to learn from this project was milling off molded on detail; when it works, and when it's just not worth the effort. I have struggled through several removal projects using hand tools and I'm really curious as to whether my little CNC mill can make short work of this task in jogging mode. We'll see when it gets here in September...
The 50-ton gons would require removal and replacement of all of the ribs, which suggests to me that it might just be easier to scratchbuild them; but if the milling works well they could be added to the project as well.
Charles Hostetler
Germantown, MD